For those coming late to the party, though, these are the links to the previous posts that discussed of Saving Throws:
- d6 Saving Throws for LotFP
- Saving Throws compared across rulesets
- Saving Throws ideas
- Saving Throw Effort
Let's look at an interesting prospective about Saving Throws: they give better odds against more mortal threats. Let's look at it in the order as in the article:
- vs. Death (or Poison) has the better score of all
- vs. Wands or Paralysis or Petrification it has a still a "decent" score (well, not so good but we're talking about Saving Throws)
- vs. Magic or generic Spells even lower
- vs. Breath or Area Effects, the lowest of all
Now, the progression is not so linear and it is lost, if you check across the various rulesets present here in Saving Throws compared across rulesets, in many OSR retro-clones.
The change of scores messing up the order of severity is something I never noticed before.
I particularly like this analysis because it does not focus on the usual "simulation of reality" but instead presents a game design reason for scores that otherwise would just be arbitrary numbers on a table.
by Delta
[...] Here's an observation I haven't seen expressed before: The save categories in OD&D are most easily interpreted as just levels-of-severity. Consider the following:
The first category is "Death Ray or Poison", and receives a +4 bonus [...] which represents instant death. In order to give our characters a fighting chance, a fairly hefty bonus is given.
Second is "All Wands -- Including Polymorph or Paralization". [...] render the victim effectively helpless and subject to a follow-up coup de grace. Hence a relative +3 bonus is given to avoid these effects.
Third is "Stone", i.e., turn-to-stone (petrification). [...] Bonus is +2 here compared to baseline.
Fourth is "Dragon Breath", which is not instant elimination from a failed save, but (obviously) pretty bad, major business. Bonus is effectively +1 in this case.
Fifth and finally you have "Staves & Spells" which is in some sense "everything else", i.e. non immediate death or incapacitation. This is our baseline, hardest to avoid, i.e., +0 bonus in similar terms. [...]
But more generally, you could use these principles for judgement on the fly about the severity of effect: basically you're awarding between +0 and +4 to the save, with more heinous effects given a more generous save (again, just to give the characters a fair, fighting chance). [...]
Another post about Saving Throws, by Brendan (which has proven already that he has many interesting things to say about this subect): 4 reasons to love them (as GM, I guess...), and why are they so important.
First, they allow to introduce a save vs. death or save vs. consequence which remain threatening even against high HP or other high scores at high levels. No one is invulnerable. No one rolls dice vs. a tremendous damage, which would kill nearly anyone. You roll a Save or die, not grind HP to zero.
Second they progress by level but do not make characters invulnerable. This also implies that even high level characters may die with a single failed Saving Throw roll. Keeping the game deadly at high levels is a powerful thing.
I care less for the fact (third) of giving players something to roll.
But the fourth point speaks aloud to me: what are the Saving Throws categories saying about your game and setting? If you play low-fantasy with no dragons, change the Breath Saving Throw into something else.
Why I Love Saving Throws
Saving throws (coupled with critical hit tables) are even the best way to model serious injuries (allow a save versus critical hit when HP drops to zero or whenever your system of choice would threaten an injury). [...]
2. Progress without certainty. [...]
The essence of the traditional saving throw is progression with level. What this means is that better saving throws are a reward for surviving a long time. However, even if your saving throw is really good (down in the single digits), there is still a nontrivial chance of failure, and failing a saving throw is often fatal. [...]
3. Proactivity. [...]
Saving throws are proactive in the sense that they are something the player does. They get to do something in order to avoid some potential bad outcome. [...]
4. Atmosphere.
This is a minor point compared to the others (which in my opinion are critical to traditional Dungeons & Dragons), but it is still worth mentioning. The saving throw categories in original D&D are:
Death Ray or Poison
All Wands – Including Polymorph or Paralization [sic]
Stone
Dragon Breath
Staves & Spells
This communicates a tremendous amount of information about the setting and the challenges that are present. If these categories don’t match the challenges that characters are likely to face in your campaign, I would recommend changing them [...]
http://www.necropraxis.com/2012/07/31/why-i-love-saving-throws/
The third post today is by Jeff Rients, and contains a list of categories from various editions, for comparison. Note how Jeff also observes how categories have merged or separate across different versions (sometimes it's Wands / Staves & Spells and other times it's Rod, Staff or Wand / Spell for example).
More important, notice two important rulings:
- If a category is quite restrictive such as "Dragon Breath", he doesn't use the Save for different breath attacks
- When assigning the Saving Throw to a category, he goes in order if undecided, so the first one applies
Saving Throws, part 1
by Jeff Rients
[...] Today I'm going to start this analysis with simply listing the categories of save for each edition that I have within reach as I type this.
OD&D
Death Ray or Poison
All Wands -- Including Polymorph or Paralization [sic]
Stone
Dragon Breath
Staves & Spells
AD&D1
Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic
Petrification or Polymorph
Rod, Staff or Wand
Breath Weapon
Spell
[...]
Observations
One of the interesting things I see here is how the various categories evolve, couple, and de-couple. Poison and Death/Death Magic/Death Ray are always the same category of save, but Wands may or not have anything to do with Staff. [...]
A saving category called Dragon Breath implies that non-draconic breath weapons don't allow a save unless specifically indicated. This is a special case of the broader principal that may or may not inform your own game. I tend to assume that the category names Mean Something, in that if an attack form doesn't obviously fall under one or more category on the chart then the implication is that a save isn't allowed. [...]
In most editions Wands are the second save listed, but AD&D they're third. This matters when I run because of a rule of thumb I use. Some attacks fall under mutliple possible saves. Like a dragon breath attack that is poison gas or a wand of paralyzation. Sometimes the monster/item/whatever description tells you what to save against, but sometimes it doesn't. In the latter case I give precendence to saves listed earlier on the chart. [...]
http://jrients.blogspot.com/2009/05/saving-throws-part-1.htmlOD&D
Death Ray or Poison
All Wands -- Including Polymorph or Paralization [sic]
Stone
Dragon Breath
Staves & Spells
AD&D1
Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic
Petrification or Polymorph
Rod, Staff or Wand
Breath Weapon
Spell
[...]
Observations
One of the interesting things I see here is how the various categories evolve, couple, and de-couple. Poison and Death/Death Magic/Death Ray are always the same category of save, but Wands may or not have anything to do with Staff. [...]
A saving category called Dragon Breath implies that non-draconic breath weapons don't allow a save unless specifically indicated. This is a special case of the broader principal that may or may not inform your own game. I tend to assume that the category names Mean Something, in that if an attack form doesn't obviously fall under one or more category on the chart then the implication is that a save isn't allowed. [...]
In most editions Wands are the second save listed, but AD&D they're third. This matters when I run because of a rule of thumb I use. Some attacks fall under mutliple possible saves. Like a dragon breath attack that is poison gas or a wand of paralyzation. Sometimes the monster/item/whatever description tells you what to save against, but sometimes it doesn't. In the latter case I give precendence to saves listed earlier on the chart. [...]
The last post is very interesting because it suggests a abstract point of view on Saving Throws, which goes against possible house-rules which connect the Save to an Ability/Attribute, but does so for a very precise reason and with an original, yet very interesting intention.
Saving Throws, according to Courtney Campbell, are not a simulationistic tool. They are abstract: in a single roll you determine if you suffer or not the consequences of an impending danger, but if you succeed, a Saving Throws does not tell you how. This is possible if you keep abstract categories such as Death/Poison or Breath/Area, but if you connect Saving Throws to Abilities/Attributes or use the next categories "reflex, will, and fortitude", such abstraction is lost.
To make an example, if you trigger a poisoned dart trap, and make a reflex Save, you should simply narrate how you avoided the dart. If instead you roll vs. Death/Poison, there are plenty of possible descriptions: the trap didn't trigger, the trap didn't hit the character, the character avoided the dart, the dart didn't pierce the armor or the poison had lost its power, etc.
On Abstraction and Saving Throws
by Courtney Campbell
Modern systems seem to assume a baseline representation - i.e. I rolled twice, so each roll represents a swing of my sword or I can possibly move up to 10' a second, so in six seconds I move 60'.
At first blush this seems to make a lot of sense, but if you look at it too closely the abstraction inherent in hit points and saves breaks suspension of disbelief. i.e. Hit points suddenly becomes literal wounds dealt by specific sword blows. There are 3 saves reflex, will, and fortitude, and they literally and in a direct and visceral way represent 'getting out of the way' 'resisting with your mind' and 'enduring with your body'. [...]
But what of old school saves you say? Abstraction, and this indeed is why they are cool. [...]
Why that's the coolest thing about them! Nothing specific at all! All we know is success or failure - the actual means of that is up to you. (and your classes general ability to handle that specific kind of threat is built into the numbers) [...]
The point is, that the game *doesn't* tell you how you make your save - that's part of the discovery of what's happening and the fun. Logistically it's a lot more fun to come up with answers for why things happen then trying to plot out a specific sequence of events that is occurring every six seconds. Also, you've got a lot more room for awesome and rule of cool in your descriptions. [...]
What I especially liked about this article, is that it pushes the game, the descriptions, to be a little more inventive and original. It resonates with me (although often in my house-rules I used to connect Saving Throws to abilities) and it gives me a new prospective (and the next time, I might go back to the original categories or make my own, but stop connecting Saving Throws with abilities).
In fact, it connects well with my attitude for example to describe combat in original ways. Combat is not just hit and miss. A failed to-hit roll in combat could be many things: it's not just a sword swing which misses the target; it can be described as blocking, as parrying, as hitting the armor or missing just by an inch, as the target dodging cleverly, and so on.
In fact, it connects well with my attitude for example to describe combat in original ways. Combat is not just hit and miss. A failed to-hit roll in combat could be many things: it's not just a sword swing which misses the target; it can be described as blocking, as parrying, as hitting the armor or missing just by an inch, as the target dodging cleverly, and so on.
Design notes:
- Give better Saving Throws scores vs. more deadly threats
- Give lower Saving Throws scores vs. less deadly threats or threats that only affect HP
- This is not to "simulate" something specific but rather to increase a little the characters' resistance, or give them "a fair chance"
- Bypass HP buffers, or in other words: Save or die is still "fair" when it makes sense, because the game has indeed Saving Throws built-in for deadly threats which should bypass HP as a combat/health buffer
- Progress by level but still do not make characters invulnerable (again, Saves are against serious, deadly threats, even at high levels)
- Saving Throws categories say something important about the most deadly threats of your setting
- Make sure that Saving Throws categories make sense for your game, or tune them
- Give lower Saving Throws scores vs. less deadly threats or threats that only affect HP
- This is not to "simulate" something specific but rather to increase a little the characters' resistance, or give them "a fair chance"
- Bypass HP buffers, or in other words: Save or die is still "fair" when it makes sense, because the game has indeed Saving Throws built-in for deadly threats which should bypass HP as a combat/health buffer
- Progress by level but still do not make characters invulnerable (again, Saves are against serious, deadly threats, even at high levels)
- Saving Throws categories say something important about the most deadly threats of your setting
- Make sure that Saving Throws categories make sense for your game, or tune them
- If a category is quite restrictive such as "Dragon Breath", it might not be applicable to similar breath attacks by other creatures (decide if you want a category to be restrictive or inclusive)
- When assigning the Saving Throw to a category, go in order if undecided, so the first one applies
- Connecting Saving Throws to abilities or to the new "reflex, will, and fortitude" turns them into a "simulation" tool, which narrows their scope and descriptions
Really excellent summary and great points here, thank you. My logical brain has been saying that ability score based savings throws are the most logical structure (i.e. 5e) for saving throws and I love how clearly this refutes that.
ReplyDeleteI think with some careful tuning and thought saving throws can again be an interesting mechanic rather than a source of frustration and confusion (e.g. "wait, the goblin 'hit' me? Can I save versus reflex to dodge out of the way?" and "You failed your CON save, take 5 hp of damage." <- why was this a save at all?)