Saving Throws compared across rulesets

When we looked at the 3d6 in order as char-gen procedure, we compared five major rulesets:
- B/X Essentials
- Swords & Wizardry WhiteBox
- Swords & Wizardry Core
- Labyrinth Lord
- Lamentations of the Flame Princess

This time, let's see how the same rulesets treat Saving Throws - your last chance to avoid terrible harm or death. As in the other post, we'll see BXE first, as it's loyal to the OD&D scores.
In all rulesets, Saving Throws are handled with a d20 roll which has to be equal or higher than a given threshold.
In the tables below, you can see the different values divided by class, at level one.

Note how S&W (as you for sure already know) uses a single value for Saving Throws, granting a bonus to the d20 roll (making it better for the character) for certain categories, to the various classes.


Cleric
Originally (BXE) more resistant vs. Death, and Wands, in S&W WB they are more resistant to Death, and Poison, and in S&W Core the improvement is instead vs. Paralyze, and Poison. LL and LotFP remain faithful to the original scores.

BXE	Death	Wands	Paralysis	Breath	Spells
Cleric	11	12	14	16	15
S&W WB	All	Death	Poison	Magic
Cleric	14	+2	+2
S&W Core	All	Device	Paralyze	Poison	Wand	Spell
Cleric	15		+2	+2
LL	Breath Attacks	Poison or Death	Petrify or Paralyze	Wands	Spells or Spell-like Devices
Cleric	16	11	14	12	15
LotFP	Paralyze	Poison	Breath	Device	Magic
Cleric	14	11	16	12	15

Fighter
Slightly less resilient than the Cleric, the Fighter is also originally (BXE) more resistant vs. Death, and Wands. In S&W WB fighters "loose" two points on the Saving Throws compared to Clerics and have a lower bonus vs. to Death, and Poison, while in S&W Core they have a better score than Clerics but without any other bonus. LL remains faithful to the original scores again, but LotFP presents much worse scores for the level one fighters, on every Saving Throw category.

BXE	Death	Wands	Paralysis	Breath	Spells
Fighter	12	13	14	15	16
S&W WB	All	Death	Poison	Magic
Fighter	16	+1	+1
S&W Core	All	Device	Paralyze	Poison	Wand	Spell
Fighter	14
LL	Breath Attacks	Poison or Death	Petrify or Paralyze	Wands	Spells or Spell-like Devices
Fighter	15	12	14	13	16
LotFP	Paralyze	Poison	Breath	Device	Magic
Fighter	16	16	16	15	18

Magic-User
Even less resilient is the Magic-user, in the original (BXE) scores, and who's better only vs. Paralysis. In S&W WB and Core Magic-users have one point less than Clerics in Saving Throws, but one point more than Fighters, plus they are the only class with a bonus vs. magic. In LL there are slightly better scores than the original vs. Wands, and Spells, reinforcing the idea that Magic-users know best how to resist or avoid magical effects. In LotFP we have slightly better scores than the original, thus granting the Magic-user a little higher chance to survive at level one.

BXE	Death	Wands	Paralysis	Breath	Spells
Magic-User	13	14	13	16	15
S&W WB	All	Death	Poison	Magic
Magic-User	15			+2
S&W Core	All	Device	Paralyze	Poison	Wand	Spell
Magic-User	15				+2	+2
LL	Breath Attacks	Poison or Death	Petrify or Paralyze	Wands	Spells or Spell-like Devices
Magic-User	16	13	13	13	14
LotFP	Paralyze	Poison	Breath	Device	Magic
Magic-User	13	13	16	13	14

Thief
The last class in this review, the Thief (Specialist in LotFP) has in the original (BXE) the same Saving Throws as a Magic-user (thus worse than the Cleric and the Fighter). In S&W Core the single Saving Throw score is the same as a Magic-user, but with bonus vs. Device, and Wands (there is no Thief in S&W WB). In LL we have scores close to the original but just just slightly worse (opposite to the slight improvements granted to the Magic-users). In LotFP the Specialist has decent and average scores across all categories with a noticeable vulnerability to poison (better check before opening that chest you thief!).

BXE	Death	Wands	Paralysis	Breath	Spells
Thief	13	14	13	16	15
S&W Core	All	Device	Paralyze	Poison	Wand	Spell
Thief	15	+2			+2
LL	Breath Attacks	Poison or Death	Petrify or Paralyze	Wands	Spells or Spell-like Devices
Thief	16	14	13	15	14
LotFP	Paralyze	Poison	Breath	Device	Magic
Specialist	14	16	15	14	14

When we look at those scores we can note that there are very few scores of 11 (50% chance of success), and few with score 12 (45% success). Most of the scores are in the range of 13 (40% success) to 15 (30% success), and several scores of 16 (25% chance of success, rather poor).
Breath attacks (with a damage roll) are the hardest to resist, while poison/death is in average a bit more likely to allow a successful save (probably because a failed save vs. poison means usually certain death).
In any case, though, the chances of success with a Saving Throw are definitely low, and this means that the old saying that if you're rolling a Saving Throw it's already too late, you already screwed up, is true.


I remember when I was young and Saving Throws initially confused me. I played other games before which did not have this concept of low score=better score (roll above your score). I played games with a roll-under concept and % chances (very intuitive), or games where high scores and high rolls were both good, because you rolled and added your score to the roll, trying to beat a target number or a defense.
It felt especially funny to have Abilities with high=good scores (and the common house-rule of roll-under you Ability to accomplish something), while Saving Throws were on the same scale (1d20) but with inverted scores (roll above).
My understanding is that if you use Ability rolls and/or Skills and Saving Throws, you should have similar mechanics in place (roll under? roll above?).
They do not need to be on the same scale (some might be d20, some d6, etc.) but using the same or a similar mechanic is probably a plus.
If not, at least make the roll-under or roll-above mechanics to be intuitive.
This is why I believe that the d6 Skills in LotFP are so good. You have the images of dice on your character sheet and you color the pips when improving your chance of success.

The idea of using the same d6 mechanic for Saving Throws is a natural consequence of that. Everyone is familiar with a roll-under ability check with a d20.
It's just as easy to roll-under with a d6 on your Saving Throw score.
Read this post if you missed it: https://daimon-games.blogspot.com/2018/12/d6-saving-throws-for-lotfp.html

If you want more about the standard Saving Throws progression by class, you may read Saves in OD&D by class by Jeff Rients which also includes some nice charts.

There is more to be said about Saving Throws, definitely. A roll-under with a d6 is not the only house-rule option there.
Next time, we'll talk more about Saving Throws.