I believe this is not typical - probably some of you or many of you actually use the rules for languages, and consider them an integral part of the game... but this was not my experience.
When I've read LotFP the first time, I immediately noticed how the game changed the approach to languages.
Most Characters are assumed to begin play being fully fluent in their native tongue, and are literate as well if they have an Intelligence of 7 or greater. Elves and Dwarfs will know the local human tongue in addition to the tongue of their particular clan (Halflings use the local human language).
When a character comes into contact with another language, his chances of knowing the language is 1 in 6, with the character’s Intelligence modifier applying. If a character has a Languages skill at a greater level than 1 in 6, use that as the base chance instead.
What is quite elegant here, is that you need to make no list in advance. No need for the GM to make a list of languages, no choices to make at character creation.
You know I am a big fan of such flexible and fast approaches, and this is good enough for me. It is not perfect, of course: sometimes it may block an interesting conversation just because no character succeeds in the roll, and still leaves room for frustration for players... How many times did you improve Languages on your character sheet, as a player, giving it skill points or whatever your system used, only to have the campaign and the GM never make this relevent in play?
Still, I feel this is better than the standard lists used in most OSR games.
If instead you want to add more details to language rules, here are some suggestions.
The first is by Rocinante, and presents different levels in languages: it makes sense, if you want to simulate something more realistic.
Indeed knowing a language for basic comunication is one thing, while being fluent or able to read ancient, academic or highly specialist texts are definitely more challenging.
I personally don't like too much the idea to add this level of complexity, but I see how it could be useful if it made most characters able to speak many languages at the basic level (thus reducing or eliminating language barriers). But while I see the potential benefits of this, I still do not like too much having to track different levels for each language - and I guess it would create a discrepancy with other skills in the game... If we introduce 3 levels for languages, why not have for example: Novice/Skilled/Expert for all other skills?
Making Languages Make Sense
by Rocinante
[...] Basic: You can discuss the weather and order a drink or ask for directions in this language. Anything else is beyond you, and Charisma checks are made with disadvantage if using this language. (1 point)
Fluent: You can make alliances, chat someone up and get by in almost all day-to-day situations. (2 points)Scholarly: You can read ancient, academic or highly specialist texts in this language and understand them. Think reading Foucault in the original French. Only ‘scholarly’ classes (Wizard, Cleric, Warlock, Bard) or those with a relevant background (Scholar, Sage etc) may choose this option. (3 points)
[...]
I guess there might be a way to use this concept, somehow keeping the game still simple, if it would be paired with something easier like the default LotFP Languages skill.
An idea could be to allow characters to comunicate with other humans and humanoids in most cases (thus leaving room for role playing and negotiations and interactions...) and test the LotFP Languages skill for reading/writing/other advanced uses of languages.
The next link is instead an analysis of alignment languages - although the post starts with a few considerations about languages for the various game's species (elves, dwarves, etc...) and the "common" tongue which may be used to avoid language barriers.
The alignment language is another interesting topic because it could be used to make possible to sustain many more interactions than the regular language list would... but on the other hand, if used between NPCs and/or monsters, would make it possible for characters to guess someone's alignment very quickly.
The article suggests several alternatives, which are a mix of alignment and other languages - and they have a certain flavor to them, but again I fell like they push too far in terms of world-building and GM-prep and details for the players to remember... especially if they are presented before the start of a campaign, rather than as details that come up later on in play, little by little.
An idea could be to allow characters to comunicate with other humans and humanoids in most cases (thus leaving room for role playing and negotiations and interactions...) and test the LotFP Languages skill for reading/writing/other advanced uses of languages.
The next link is instead an analysis of alignment languages - although the post starts with a few considerations about languages for the various game's species (elves, dwarves, etc...) and the "common" tongue which may be used to avoid language barriers.
The alignment language is another interesting topic because it could be used to make possible to sustain many more interactions than the regular language list would... but on the other hand, if used between NPCs and/or monsters, would make it possible for characters to guess someone's alignment very quickly.
The article suggests several alternatives, which are a mix of alignment and other languages - and they have a certain flavor to them, but again I fell like they push too far in terms of world-building and GM-prep and details for the players to remember... especially if they are presented before the start of a campaign, rather than as details that come up later on in play, little by little.
by Eric Diaz
[...] B13 has a list of languages that is not specially interesting - you've got languages for elves, dwarves, lizard men, etc. It makes sense that every creature would have their own language [...]
This is not particularly useful when running a game. so we get a "common" language that 20% of people speak, thus avoiding to deal with language barriers all the time (still too often, probably) [...]
Modern D&D does something like that, while reducing the number of languages and alphabets to more manageable levels - maybe goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears all speak the same language, for example. Again, works well, but feels a bit artificial and it's not something I feel particularly interested in.
[...]
Now, alignment language. It certainly has its fans, but it has plenty of haters and has been mostly abandoned in modern D&D, as it makes little sense unless you see alignment as factions. The main inspiration for the concept is probably Black Speech.
Another problem with alignment languages is that, in theory, it could be used to identify anyone's alignment in seconds, making some interesting interactions impossible.
[...]
Darkspeak: the spoken/written language of demons and the mightiest inhabitants of the Abyss. Only chaotic characters can learn it without a significant risk of going mad, and even them will avoid using it unless they are also demons.
Bastard tongue: the gutural, often unpleasant spoken language of goblins, orcs, minor demons and beings that associate with chaos.
Devani: the spoken/written language of Elysium. Learning this language for any character that isn't lawful is like looking directly into the sun, and many will not survive the experience. Every mortal uses this language with reverence and awe and avoid speaking it out loud - even if they can understand it when it comes form the mouth of an angel.
Prisca: the spoken/written language of the fallen Empire, specially common in religious (lawful) texts and legal documents.
Fae: the spoken (sung) language of fairies and the spirits of the wild. Anyone can learn it, but characters that are not Neutral are suffer greater risk of being charmed by sylvan spirits if they understand their words.
[...]
Another interesting take on alignment languages is to consider them specific dead languages in the campaign world. This means that they can be learned and therefore someone's alignment is not necessarily indicated by the alignment language that they speak, and that having a mix of alignments in the party is useful if you need to be able to read or write or speak a specific dead language.
This feels again like an additional layer of complication, to me, but it's interesting (and probably more reasonable than the secret code languages as the original alignment languages were).
Alignment languages will be specific dead languages in the campaign world. They're not secret. They're not exclusive. They're not even really designed to be used as a secret code language or shibboleth. But whatever alignment you choose determines which of the three (luckily for me, I run Classic D&D with Law-Neutrality-Chaos only) your PC knows, in addition to Common and any demi-human languages.
[...]
This means you can't necessarily trust someone just because they happen to speak Ancient Gardelish and so do you (not that you should implicitly trust someone of your own alignment anyway, even if you're both Lawful). It also gives a reason why adventuring parties might actually WANT a range of alignments in the party. [...]
If this sounds interesting to you, you may read more in the second part of the blog post.
[...] Anyway, my point tonight is to restate my idea in simpler terms.
"Alignment languages" in my game will CEASE to be alignment languages as commonly understood. They will be dead languages within the campaign world: the cultures that spawned the languages have disappeared, and the successor cultures may speak a language based on them, but they are still different languages. People use them for various purposes (religious, mercantile, academic, etc.). Most educated people (and all adventurers) know one or more of them, but rarely use them in everyday life.
[...]
For example, let's say I've set up Latin as the language Lawfuls start with, Ancient Greek as the language Neutrals start with, and Ancient Egyptian as the language Chaotics start with. Bob rolls up Gargamel, a Neutral Magic-User with a 17 Int, entitling him to two bonus languages. He gets French (Common, everyone has it) and Ancient Greek (for being Neutral). He wants to speak to dragons, so he takes Dragon as a bonus. He then decides that communicating with any humanoids he charms would be useful, so he decides that for his second bonus language he will learn Ancient Egyptian. [...]
After reading all these, I am inclined to keep the simple approach of Lamentations of the Flame Princess.
If you want your players to avoid wasting points on the Language skill if you don't really know if it will ever come into play, you could simply grant all classes (not just the Specialist) some sort of automatic progression (i.e. a point in this Language skill every 3 levels or something).
Thinking about it...
I guess Languages are not something that the characters will necessarily get better at, with adventuring - or instead, if you want to look at it from a different point of view, all characters, regardless of their class, will improve with Languages with travel, adventuring, contact with other populations and perhaps with contact with monsters and creatures (if they speak at all).
So my proposal would be to use the LotFP rule and to set the Language skill to 1, but at character creation also add to it the INT or CHA modifier (whichever is higher, and only if positive). Then do not change it anymore (smarter characters or those more inclined to social contact, will have better language skills).
As an alternative, use the LotFP rule and set the Language skill to 1, then every time a character gains a level, roll a d6. If they roll higher than their Language skill, add 1 point to it. As they get better, it becomes less likely that they will add another dot.
There you go; all classes get their fair chance of improving with languages and players do not need to waste points in this skill that maybe you as the GM will never bring into play...
You know what it looks like to me? Saving Throws: Save vs. Dragon Breath increases also if you don't have dragons in your campaign. And if you decide one day to bring one into the game, your characters have a score to save against it.
Design notes:
- Languages are for me a sore topic: they require attention at character creation, and they usually present a difficult choice for players, because selecting languages is often a blind bet
- To help players to make this decision in an informed manner, the GM should prepare in advance a list of available languages and somehow explain to the players which could be more relevant
- Also, selecting languages when afterwards the GM (or the style of the adventures/campaign) does not bring them into play becomes a waste of time at char-gen or even worse, a waste of skill points
- LotFP has a single skill which is tested once for every new language, eliminating the initial choice (but still the skill requires players to invest points in it, so it is still potentially a waste if languages then do not come up)
- If you want to keep it simple, just make this Language skill to progress automatically for example every 3 levels, for all classes (not just Specialists)
- Languages, in real life, have "levels": you can be able to sustain basic conversations or complex ones, you may or not have an accent, be able or not to read and write; this level of complexity seems like an overkill unless languages play a really important role in your campaign
- An idea could be to use a skill like in LotFP but only for advanced uses: i.e. when reading/writing or sustaining a complex conversation
- If you use alignment languages, be careful because it makes it possible for the characters to determine someone's alignment very quickly
- Languages, and also alignment languages (or alternatives to them) help to generate a credible, detailed setting for your campaign, but they might become an additional burden for the players if they are presented just as an info-dump at the start of the game
- If you use alignment languages, you could consider them to be specific dead languages in the campaign world
- My personal preference is to use the LotFP simple approach, but with some sort of automatic progression (i.e. every X levels, or with a d6 chance to improve the skill at level-up)
- Languages are for me a sore topic: they require attention at character creation, and they usually present a difficult choice for players, because selecting languages is often a blind bet
- To help players to make this decision in an informed manner, the GM should prepare in advance a list of available languages and somehow explain to the players which could be more relevant
- Also, selecting languages when afterwards the GM (or the style of the adventures/campaign) does not bring them into play becomes a waste of time at char-gen or even worse, a waste of skill points
- LotFP has a single skill which is tested once for every new language, eliminating the initial choice (but still the skill requires players to invest points in it, so it is still potentially a waste if languages then do not come up)
- If you want to keep it simple, just make this Language skill to progress automatically for example every 3 levels, for all classes (not just Specialists)
- Languages, in real life, have "levels": you can be able to sustain basic conversations or complex ones, you may or not have an accent, be able or not to read and write; this level of complexity seems like an overkill unless languages play a really important role in your campaign
- An idea could be to use a skill like in LotFP but only for advanced uses: i.e. when reading/writing or sustaining a complex conversation
- If you use alignment languages, be careful because it makes it possible for the characters to determine someone's alignment very quickly
- Languages, and also alignment languages (or alternatives to them) help to generate a credible, detailed setting for your campaign, but they might become an additional burden for the players if they are presented just as an info-dump at the start of the game
- If you use alignment languages, you could consider them to be specific dead languages in the campaign world
- My personal preference is to use the LotFP simple approach, but with some sort of automatic progression (i.e. every X levels, or with a d6 chance to improve the skill at level-up)
Hi! I did up a blog post on languages and alignment languages- I would DM you with it, but I haven't figured out how to do that on blogger of if that's even a thing, so if you're interested let me know and I'll link it here!
ReplyDeleteSure, you can link your own post here in the comments! thanks!
DeleteAnd perhaps add a few introductory lines, to describe how you approached the subject, so that people can see what the post is about, then follow the link if interested in reading the full thing.
Delete